Federal Visionists, from time to time, like to invoke the out-of-context comments of various reformers to support a notion such as temporary salvation for the reprobate. Their out-of-context proof-texting methods are completely wasted on Scripture as well. Standing firmly upon partial Biblical data is not only deceiving, it’s deadly when it comes to the truth. Satan himself was expert at this method while tempting Jesus. The truth of the matter is that partial truth is no truth at all.
Here again is the Biblical view of so-called temporary salvation and John Calvin’s thoughts on the matter.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. – English Standard Version
They went out from us - He anticipates another objection, that the Church seemed to have produced these pests, and to have cherished them for a time in its bosom. For certainly it serves more to disturb the weak, when any one among us, professing the true faith, falls away, than when a thousand aliens conspire against us. He then confesses that they had gone out from the bosom of the Church; but he denies that they were ever of the Church. But the way of removing this objection is, to say, that the Church is always exposed to this evil, so that it is constrained to bear with many hypocrites who know not Christ, really, however much they may by the mouth profess his name.
By saying, They went out from us, he means that they had previously occupied a place in the Church, and were counted among the number of the godly. He, however, denies that they were of them, though they had assumed the name of believers, as chaff though mixed with wheat on the same floor cannot yet be deemed wheat.
For if they had been of us He plainly declares that those who fell away had never been members of the Church. And doubtless the seal of God, under which he keeps his own, remains sure, as Paul says, (2 Timothy 2:19.) But here arises a difficulty, for it happens that many who seemed to have embraced Christ, often fall away. To this I answer, that there are three sorts of those who profess the Gospel; there are those who feign piety, while a bad conscience reproves them within; the hypocrisy of others is more deceptive, who not only seek to disguise themselves before men, but also dazzle their own eyes, so that they seem to themselves to worship God aright; the third are those who have the living root of faith, and carry a testimony of their own adoption firmly fixed in their hearts. The two first have no stability; of the last John speaks, when he says, that it is impossible that they should be separated from the Church, for the seal which God’s Spirit engraves on their hearts cannot be obliterated; the incorruptible seed, which has struck roots, cannot be pulled up or destroyed.
He does not speak here of the constancy of men, but of God, whose election must be ratified. He does not then, without reason declare, that where the calling of God is effectual, perseverance would be certain. He, in short, means that they who fall away had never been thoroughly imbued with the knowledge of Christ, but had only a light and a transient taste of it.
That they might be made manifest He shews that trial is useful and necessary for the Church. It hence follows, on the other hand, that there is no just cause for perturbation. Since the Church is like a threshing-floor, the chaff must be blown away that the pure wheat may remain. This is what God does, when he casts out hypocrites from the Church, for he then cleanses it from refuse and filth.
The following is a quote of James Jordan commenting on a post entitled, “CalvinISM” on Biblical Horizons.
Speaking of first century Pharisees Mr. Jordan says,
They had the right doctrine, but they were mean as snakes, with the Snake as their Daddy. They way Steve Wilkins and others have been treated in the micro-presbyterian world shows us that the same kind of people are around today.
So much for apologies.
Yesterday while surfing the net I ran across an intriguing post title – “John Calvin’s “Arminian” Interpretation of Hebrews 10:26.” I just couldn’t help but take a look. The post quotes Calvin’s comments on Hebrews 10:26 regarding those who fall away from the Church – reprobates. The point of the author is not really that Calvin was actually “Arminian,” but rather that his Arminian sounding comments on Hebrews 10:26 are supportive of Federal Vision soteriology, which is a strange mix of Calvinism, Arminianism and Roman Catholicism. The author of this post makes additional “observations” in the combox. There was one comment in particular that I would like to highlight.
5) The condition of these apostates before their apostasy was not merely (as our opponents on the other side of the Reformed spectrum would argue) one of being a “reprobate” or completely foreign to the Church, God’s grace, and salvation in every sense. Gabe Martini -the franciscan mafia blog
Mr. Martini believes that Calvin supports the notion that reprobates receive salvation in some sense – albeit temporarily. Calvin says no such thing. As a matter of fact, if you take what Calvin says as a whole it’s impossible to come to such a conclusion. If Mr Martini would have taken the time to merely look at Calvin’s comments on the verses following his proof-text he would have found what Calvin really thinks about the salvific status of the apostate. Here are Calvin’s comment on Hebrews 10:30:
. . . Nevertheless he who weighs well all things will find that this passage is fitly and suitably adduced here; for God cannot govern the Church without purifying it, and without restoring to order the confusion that may be in it. Therefore this governing ought justly to be dreaded by hypocrites, who will then be punished for usurping a place among the faithful, and for perfidiously using the sacred name of God, when the master of the family undertakes himself the care of setting in order his own house. It is in this sense that God is said to arise to judge his people, that is, when he separates the truly godly from hypocrites, (Psalm 1:4;) and in Psalm 125:5, where the prophet speaks of exterminating hypocrites, that they might no more dare to boast that they were of the Church, because God bore with them; he promises peace to Israel after having executed his judgment.
It was not then unreasonably that the apostle reminded them that God presided over his Church and omitted nothing necessary for its rightful government, in order that they might all learn carefully to keep themselves under his power, and remember that they had to render an account to their judge . . .
John Calvin – Hebrews 10:30
Calvin couldn’t be more clear on his view of apostates. He calls them, “hypocrites, who will then be punished for usurping a place among the faithful.” He calls them, “hypocrites, that they might no more dare to boast that they were of the Church, because God bore with them . . .”
How can it be said that hypocrites, usurpers, and those who will no more boast that they were “of the Church” were ever saved – even temporarily? I’ll let Calvin’s comments speak for themselves.
I know for a fact that some FV reps are frequenting my humble blog. And since I have had no luck getting Mr. James Jordan to answer questions I posed on a few more popular blogs, or any other FV rep for that matter, I’ll ask here. If for no other reason, then just for the record.
James Jordan said in his nebulous apology:
. . . being neither in the PCA nor a presbyterian, anything beyond a general expression of concern or horror at how these affairs are being conducted is inappropriate.
So which is it Mr. Jordan? Are you merely “concerned” or are you “horrified?” There’s a big difference. And exactly which “affairs” are being conducted inappropriately? At this point in my Christian experience I actually find it a bit amusing when those who claim to uphold the tenets of good church discipline suddenly find themselves on the receiving end of the process now cry foul.
I witnessed the discussion leading up to the adoption of the study report at General Assembly last year – which BTW, was commisioned 1 year before. Discussions, debates, books, position papers, etc. were taking place long before that. Hardly a rush to judgement.
How many more years should we all toss this ball back and forth anyway? Why continue to disturb the peace of the PCA when it’s painfully obvious that the time for talk is now over? What more can be said that hasn’t already been said?
It would seem that the Federal Visionists, even the ones who are not members of the PCA, are hell-bent on setting up their siege engines at the walls of the PCA, so to speak. If I were a person who found myself at odds with my denominations “view” of the Westminster Standards, and the judicial process, and the supposed antinomian haters of the kingship of the Lord Jesus who deny that fiducia is part of saving faith??? who are members therein, and I had nothing but contempt and angry words of hatred to spew forth toward them, yata yata yata, I would want to wash my hands of the whole thing and/or remove myself from that denomination as quickly as possible. Hey, I guess I’m just weird that way. Go figure.
You know what they say – it ain’t over till the fat lady sings and she just ain’t singing.
Have a nice day!
Hey, James Jordan has apologized for his “over-heated” comments regarding the PCA. Well . . . kind of . . .
What Mr. Jordan gives with one hand, he takes away with the other. This FV attempt at damage control couldn’t be more transparent. Take a look at Mark T’s latest post and I think you’ll see what I mean.
James Jordan lashes out once again in response to an article posted on Green Bagginses entitled The Discussion Phase Is Clearly Over. Here’s another taste of Mr. Jordan’s shameful behavior.
James Jordan said,
January 17, 2008 at 1:47 pmSome men remain in the PCA because God has told them they have a duty to help the 7000 who have not yet bowed the knee to antichrist. They (The) hatred of the Kingship of Jesus, which characterizes so much of the PCA, is with (worth) fighting. The Reformed faith is that faith includes fiducia, and this is still worth fighting for, regardless of how many antinominian blogs hate it
The FV bunch really should wake up and smell the coffee. The PCA, as well as a few other Reformed and Presbyterian denominations, want them to pack their bags and move on.
You see, these men had a pretty good run as far as thumbing their collective nose at the PCA and our process of dicipline. Now, as the entire Louisiana Presbytery is facing indictment, I believe they’re beginning to realize that they can no longer buck the system because the fangs and claws are coming out like never before.
James Jordan said . . .
The actions of the Star Judicial Chamber of the PCA are so openly wicked and evil, and so totally tyrannical, that is makes the Papacy look like small potatoes by comparison. All Christians in all kinds of churches should be appalled by this tyranny . . .
Well, the Federal Vision saga continues. Don’t miss the posts of Mark T. This guy definately has an inside track on the “doings” of the FV bunch and I really appreciate that. Check out his latest post.
